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On Christian Persecution by AmericanDreaming On Christian Persecution by AmericanDreaming
From "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind," (2011) by Yuval Noah Harari.  See my review Here.

I like to imagine being the closest thing to a political commentator during this period, demanding why the Christian community hasn't addressed all of the Christian-on-Christian violence, just without the bit where I get tortured and burned alive for it.


The Incorrigible Defender by AmericanDreaming  The Forefront of Hate by AmericanDreaming  Certainty is Murderous by AmericanDreaming

See more in my Yuval Noah Harari folder.


I'm on YouTube.
:twitter: twitter.com/AmericnDreaming
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:iconlaibhargaid:
laibhargaid Featured By Owner Jun 14, 2017  Professional Artisan Crafter
Before Constantine Christianity was more of a rebellious, 'leveller' type of movement. He seems to be part of the reason it got so f'd up.
Its perversion, like that of Judaism or Islam, is to pretend to be the only path for enlightenment.
So, Jews are the 'Chosen people.'
Christ says, 'Ye shall only come to the Father through me.'
Mohammed says 'I am god's prophet.'
And yet, if there is a God, he made all of us. So why would he/she/it single out only one way, and one people as the true way?
I think organised religion is rubbish personally, but I also think that sovereign individuals should be allowed to believe whatever they want about God.
For me, the problem arises when they try and tell me I am wrong for believing whatever shite I want to believe, as if their shite was better.
Atheists can be guilty of this too. Nobody knows if there is or isn't a God, so to kill anyone for having an opposite view is insanity based on a delusion of certainty.
There is more evidence of outside intervention in the DNA of modern man than there is for either God or micro-evolution from a hominid ancestor. So my money would be on intervention. This does not contradict either God-theory or evolution BTW, so please don't anybody waste my/your time arguing for a pet theory. Its all just opinion. In other words, shite!
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 14, 2017   Writer
"It's all just opinion."

When someone has no evidence, they have to try to muddy the waters and level the playing field. 

Tell you what. I won't waste your time if you don't waste mine by commenting. Deal?
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:iconlaibhargaid:
laibhargaid Featured By Owner Jun 14, 2017  Professional Artisan Crafter
No. Sorry man. You seem to think you can put your opinion out there, attacking other people, and just sit back while the 'Amens'  come in.
I will keep commenting if you keep posting in an open forum while you work out your post religious hangups.
People don't agree with you sometimes.
Deal with it.
You are not saying anything particularly profound.
Nor is it particularly original.
My comments are not for you. They are for the people who like a different point of view.
Just ban me, if you can't handle it.


There is plenty of evidence within the human genome for genetic intervention in human DNA.
There is none for Atheism, and none for God.
Regards,
Steve
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 15, 2017   Writer
What are you talking about? You left a comment disagreeing, then told me not to waste your time by debating it. So you can waste my time but I cannot waste yours? If you want to air your opinions without any pushback (which is what you're projecting onto me, hilariously), then you ought to post content of your own and disable comments.

Hugs and kisses,
Jamie
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:icongraeystone:
Graeystone Featured By Owner Jun 13, 2017
Study Nero sometime or read Fox's Book of Martyrs before you spout of such foolishness.
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 13, 2017   Writer
The fact that some Christians have been persecuted does not refute anything said here. Dipshit.
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:iconhorus2299:
Horus2299 Featured By Owner Jun 11, 2017
Where's your source for the claim that Christians killed millions of other Christians specifically because of their religious beliefs? Could you give an example of one such incident?
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:icongeneraldaedalus:
GeneralDaedalus Featured By Owner Jun 12, 2017
One such example is the Thirty Years' War, due to the clash of the Reformation and the Roman Catholic Church. 8 million casualties and losses. It did start with religious strife although France then joined the Protestants later in the war to politically topple the Habsburgs, the rest still fought for religious reasons.

French Wars Of Religion/Huguenot Wars. 2-4 million casualties. Before the ThirtyYearsWar.

The rest I'm about to list don't ammount to millions of casualties but they have their share.

Hussite Wars were another, a total of five crusades initiated by the Pope.

Massacre of the Latins were Roman Catholics in Constantinople were massacred by the Eastern Orthodox population. Which may have provoked the sacking of Constantinople by Crusaders.

Albigensian Crusade/Cathar Crusade in France.

There may be more, seriously you can search up yourself for the conflicts and persecutions.
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:icontheinvisibledeity:
Theinvisibledeity Featured By Owner Jun 11, 2017
Thank you! Finally someone else points this out. It is a pathetic sight to see Western Christians whine about persecution when in reality they are not being persecuted. Disagreeing with Christians, poking fun at their beliefs, allowing gays to marry, and allowing others to have different beliefs is not persecution.

What I find more disturbing is the hypocrisy of modern-day Christians who either like to ignore their religion's history or are simply unaware. Then they have the nerve to claim victimhood to further an antisemitic, anti-gay, and anti-Muslim agenda. Just look at some of the conservative politicians or prominent alt-right figures like a certain individual by the name of Theodore Beale, also known as Vox Day.
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 11, 2017   Writer
Yeah, as I've said elsewhere in these comments, these folks may not have any shame, but they do have some balls on them.
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
if we're looking at persecution in the western world, then of course that's complete bullshit. i do think to a certain degree there's an amount of social anxiety with it, speaking from the experience of a roman catholic, but most of that is because of groups like the religious right and people like the westboro baptist church who are complete fundamentalists that basically ruin it for the rest of us, and even then it's not like we're being lined up and shot like jews in nazi germany.

...on the other hand, when you go to third world countries and especially in the middle east, there is actual persecution going on, same for gays and other groups. a lot of that is due to doctrines and other stuff like sharia law that essentially demonizes any and all outsiders. some areas are more intense than others, but there is still oppression happening in these places. if christians want to point to persecution, they should point there.

what i don't get is why people feel the need to de-legitimise other people's ideologies when we should try to coexist. this is a problem i have with just about everyone in general, i too am guilty if this. i understand the desire to point out hypocrisy but at the same time we should be pointing it out to improve each other, not to tear each other down.
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017   Writer
"we should try to coexist"

When Christianity controlled the Western world, it was "join us or die (often 
gruesomely)." Now that Christianity is a shell of its former self "why can't we all just get along?" It's grotesque. We need to all get along, that goes without saying. Hypocrisy should still be called out. Honesty and civility go hand-in-hand.
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
but what you're doing is comparing two different entities here. christians nowadays are not responsible for the millions of deaths perpetrated by whatever holy force did it years ago. yes, the persecution thing is ridiculous; nobody's being persecuted here. but why exactly are modern christians the hypocrites?
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017   Writer
The hypocrisy is with modern day Western Christians who say that they are persecuted, which you agree is nonsense. No one is responsible for the sins of their ancestors or forbearers. Something, by the way, that Christianity does not believe.
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:iconthedubstepaddict:
TheDubstepAddict Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
And that's why religion sucks
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:iconcataclyptic:
Cataclyptic Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017  Student Digital Artist
Mn. It's disappointing, especially in the USA, that Christians still believe they are persecuted despite the fact that (at the moment) ~80-90% of our government is Christian right now and they have special protection laws that no one else has. 

My experience is that the Bible tells them they must be persecuted, so they think they must be. Either that or fear really helps sell the deal. 
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
what laws are you referring to? i get that christians aren't persecuted, but i don't know of any laws that specifically protect christians and nobody else.
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:iconcataclyptic:
Cataclyptic Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017  Student Digital Artist
There aren't any on paper, but because christians have a lot of power over here, in practice there exist laws that grant them special privilages. The textbook example is invocations said before a governing board. 

On paper the law says all religions and non religions are equal and can give an invocation as long as they fill out the forms. In practice though, most if not all of these invocations are exclusively christian and they try thier hardest to make sure no one from any other group can give invocations.

Another one, which is particularly annoying, is the way they have control over the IRS. See, churches are classified as non profits so they should follow all of those rules, but the IRS grants them special rules that no one else as to follow. Again as a textbook example, non profits have to post detailed records of how much money they have/made and where it all went to, but churches are exmpt from this rule. This is why nobody truly knows how much churches really make. 

There are other examples but I believe you get the point. 
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
so, there aren't actually any laws protecting christianity exclusively, just laws that protect religion, and christianity uses them? the irs situation applies to all religious institutions, no? and by law the invocations are open to all religions, no? so how does the law protect christianity exclusively outside of the basic rights any religion previously had?
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:iconcataclyptic:
Cataclyptic Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017  Student Digital Artist
Because remember, in practice, Christians are the only ones that can use them. For instance, when starting a religious non profit group it is much harder under law to try and build a mosque than a church, even though the laws technically shouldn't do that. In practice, if an atheist tries to deliver an invocation, it will be rejected most of the time because it isn't christian. 

But if you want something more in paper, take a look at Texas's state consitution and the now infamous line "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." (That last part is a religious test)

Under law, there can be no religious test prohibiting one from office anywhere in the US. In practice, people make up things like the above and no one calls them out because again, the christians are too powerful here. 
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 14, 2017
occam's razor says that most people in office right now are probably christian. many of the people serving right now are 50, 60, 70 years old and have held their positions for a long time (which is bullshit, we need term limits), and are most likely coming from religious families. it's jarring, but it makes sense to me considering the type of people submitting these invocations. if you know for a fact that they're being rejected for not being christian i'd like to see evidence.

in the most technical sense you're right: the christians are too powerful here. but that's not because they're christian, it's because they're lawmakers and government employees.

as to your second point, that would be the case 30 years ago, but according to the o'hair case that statement is void. to quote then-attorney general jim mattox, "the parties hereby agree that the last phrase, '... provided he acknowledge the existence of a supreme being.' is void and of no further effect in that it is in violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment of the united states constitution." because of the no religious test clause, those statements in any constitution mean nothing. apparently so many of the statutes in the texas constitution have been declared unconstitutional by a judge but sit there because nobody's being affected by them anymore. i understand your point that something like this was able to be introduced, but that was years ago. right now, there is nothing enforceable protecting christianity in the eyes of the law that i know of.

look, if there is a christian conspiracy going on here, i want to see it toppled. if there's one thing i utterly despise it's governmental control over anything for something as petty as religion, that becomes dogma. but i think you're seeing stuff where it doesn't exist and painting with a broad brush here. you seem like a pretty well-spoken guy and i don't want to fight with you over
 this because, let's be honest, we're not going to achieve anything in the deviantart comments section. 
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:iconcataclyptic:
Cataclyptic Featured By Owner Jun 14, 2017  Student Digital Artist
Agreed in that I don't want to fight over something like this. I guess my point is, I'm upset that Christians have so much power in my country yet choose to wield it inappropriately. also most politicians but that's another story

On the subject of the first point you made however, I might have some of that proof. One example: www.patheos.com/blogs/friendly… . This is technically illegal since there can be no religious discrimination, but hardly anybody does anything about it. This could qualify as proof of being rejected for not being a Christian, but it's hard to say since the excuse was "didn't believe in God". I'd be curious to see what would happen if a Muslim tried to deliver in invocation, but I hardly hear about any of those. 

"as to your second point, that would be the case 30 years ago, but according to the o'hair case that statement is void. to quote then-attorney general jim mattox, "the parties hereby agree that the last phrase, '... provided he acknowledge the existence of a supreme being.' is void and of no further effect in that it is in violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment of the united states constitution."

Huh. Well I suppose that's why I'm not a lawyer. 

Finally, I would hesitate to say there is a Christian conspiracy. It would be more along the lines of 'those that have power want to stay in power' and 'they will do so by any means, especially if it means putting down others'. 
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 14, 2017
i guess i was being hyperbolic with the whole conspiracy thing, and the link's gonna be something to dwell on for a bit. while my point still stands, i can cap this this off with "agree to disagree".
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(1 Reply)
:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
But something something starbucks cups and nativity scenes! THE HORROR!
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017   Writer
I once debated someone who used the fact that Christ was crucified to justify the narrative of Christian persecution. Grasping at straws a bit there.
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:iconthetobinator2145:
TheTobinator2145 Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
  Clap Clap Clap 
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017   Writer
:bow:
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:iconravenheart1984:
RavenHeart1984 Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017  Professional Traditional Artist
good job
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:iconadmiralmichalis:
AdmiralMichalis Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017
One must keep in mind that Christianity was not very prevalent before the ascension of Emperor Constantine either.  Christians, at best, were an obscure cult within the Roman Empire.  In essence, there were not very many of them to persecute.  The Roman establishment was more afraid of the message of Christianity than the number of followers, which is why they were targeted above other religious minorities within the Empire.
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017   Writer
True enough.
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:iconadmiralmichalis:
AdmiralMichalis Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017
I might also personally say;  I do not understand why Christians in the west point to the persecution by the Romans of early Christianity, while it's estimated that millions of Christians were killed during the Ottoman Period in Eastern Europe and Asia Minor.
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:iconeric-was-here:
Eric-was-here Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017
One of the unwanted-to-be-known facts is that "God" irregardless of whatever "established" religious belief has been the root reason/cause of more murdered people in history than anything else combined.
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:iconunspeakable-elvis:
Unspeakable-Elvis Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
By the way "irregardless" isn't a word
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:iconeric-was-here:
Eric-was-here Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
Neither is confuggle but the gist is easily understood.
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
i don't think so. i think it's because you had political leaders like the pope and various leaders of the church who manipulated people's faith to advance their political position. keep in mind there has been a shit ton of corruption in the church, especially during the crusades and in france circa 14th century. the sole reason people did this was because they wanted to do good and they were convinced by the chruch that slaughter was the way to do it.
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:iconeric-was-here:
Eric-was-here Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
I think your are misunderstanding this. I am not limiting this to or deriding the Christian version, Altho they have played a huge part in much of the murder and mayhem.
I does not matter if the God is Zeus/Odin or Itzamna/Unkulunkulu or even if one wishes to be more modern Allah/Yahweh. No matter what/who is worshiped from Kali to Toutatis The bottom line is that more people have been murdered in the name of ( pick a God ) than anything else in the history of humanity.
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
ah, gotcha. i figured it was still latching to the subject of christianity as opposed to all gods in general. i think my point still stands that a lot of it is corruption and misinterpretation, despite these atrocities being done in said deity's name.
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:iconeric-was-here:
Eric-was-here Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
I agree enthusiastically that greed, misinterpretation, corruption, ETC have been fully part of the problem. There has been no shortage of that from present day child molestation's/mutilations to the earliest theft from the collection plate ( and every permutation in between)
The thing is EVERY religious belief from Thuggee to Hebrew at it's core places it's "God" above ALL others and uses it's dogma and ritual n fear of death and afterlife to try and gain penultimate control over all parts of a persons life they the "elders/Pope/Guji for the benefit of the church leaders not "God"

"The problem with Humanity is twofold' 1~ All humans at some level have an irrational addiction to control other humans. 2~ No human wants to be controlled and will die to remain free."  ~  Daphne Wilde 1984
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:iconarchdukegeedorah:
archdukegeedorah Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
that makes sense. i guess in doing so that also fulfills some underlying desire for purpose as well, and once you have that deity who is all powerful and almighty and is perfect in everyway and he tells you to do something, you're going to do it because a) 'god' tells you and b) it'll grant you the fulfillment only a righteous task can do. probably the saddest part of it all is the fact that the only reason people do these kinds of things is a driving desire to do good by someone, and yet they can't grasp the notion that, for example, slaughtering an entire people is not morally justifiable. as someone who considers himself a relatively spiritual person, this stuff bothers me, dogma especially.
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:iconnikosboukouvalas:
What do you mean "murdered"? Are you referring to wars? If so, then that is not the case, because religiously motivated wars are said to account for about 2% of people killed in warfare (at least that is what several studies claim, among them being "Encyclopedia of Wars" by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod) It should be apparent though, considering religious wars are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to wars.

If you are referring to actual murders and lynching, then again I am sure that they cannot compare to the number of murders motivated by profit or passion, or the lynchings of political leaders and criminals.
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:iconeric-was-here:
Eric-was-here Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017
I mean "murdered" as in all the people from pre Aztec/Shinto/Egyptian times thru the Crusades/Jihad's to the Holocaust n Mao/Stalin's "communism" ( which was a religion if not by name only) The Afghan war against the Sov's. The wars against Israel, Iran/Iraq 10 year war to even the "modern" terrorist attack. (an argument could be made to include all the abortions done also since it is the humanist first mindset belief structure that allows such thinking.) And so many others unlisted from the smallest single killing to the largest mass murder. All done in whatever "God's" name that one worshiped and the other did not. 
All combined throughout human history from Alexander n Troy to 911 n the Manchester bombings have managed to murder more people on this planet than any other established cause ( Altho I personally believe more have been murdered over sex than anything else myself)
In short it doesnt have to be a "war" declared by some historian to be an atrocity it simply has to have been done in Gods name ( insert whatever "God" you wish)
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:iconnikosboukouvalas:
NikosBoukouvalas Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
I see then that you use the term "God" loosely, but perhaps unfairly for strong and unbending convictions held by any groups of people. In that case, I agree with you. Who wouldn't?

But wouldn't you say that having a belief (not necessarily religious) to fight and die for it's defence (but not it's enforcement) would be fair and beneficial for man? Isn't democracy, freedom and human decency worth fighting and dying for?

And I am aware that those words have been used very recently as pretences for horrible, aggressive and fruitless wars but that would not make my answer anything else than a resounding yes. For if we compromise such convictions to avoid conflict, then are we not giving up the future to tyrants?
And will they then have any hesitations to stamp out all that opposes their bloody sacrifices to their own false "gods"?
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:iconeric-was-here:
Eric-was-here Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2017
Actually I wrote said " irregardless of whatever "established" religious belief " which is more encompassing all "Gods" than any lose base. Nor would I disagree or the inverse promote any one over another. (For what it's worth I think a persons relationship and belief in/of what/whomever they wish is that persons sole right unto themselves and not subject to judgment by anyone.) I don't even have anything but a personal opinion on if such would be right or wrong. Nevertheless despite any opinion of if an instance was valid or should have been done, all of which is open to debate and interpretation of circumstance and hindsight. Yet the overriding fact as mentioned is that for whatever reasons, for boon or naught "God" has been one of the root causes of one human killing another ( and this excludes the hugely massed numbers who were harmed but NOT killed) in ( Insert whatever God' name) The name of God.
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017   Writer
Sad but true.
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:iconeric-was-here:
Eric-was-here Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017
As mentioned in a previous reply here I have a personal thinking that sex is the actual leader in this since I cannot think of any other thing personally that has caused more strife in all human history(recorded or not) than the male/female sexual game.However finding reliable stats on such is an overwhelming task but just knowing people as I do and studying history as I have it is sorta the unspoken of elephant in the equation that none dare examine for truthfulness.
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017   Writer
That is possible as well, and there may also be some overlap between the two.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017
Yup. And the moment the christians came into power (thank you, Rome, thanks a lot), they started persecuting the jews, too. Which became part of official dogma. And actively created a widespread culture of antisemitism. And we all know where that led.
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:iconamericandreaming:
AmericanDreaming Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017   Writer
Which makes the persecution complex some Christians have all the more absurd. They may not have shame, but they do have some balls on them.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2017
The thing is, a lot of them really and honestly believe it. Cognitive dissonance is no stranger to the religious, and somehow they've convinced themselves that although almost 70% of the US populace is christian, and although nearly all their publicly elect are christian, and although every president ever has claimed to be christian, and although christian culture is dominant and has serious political influence, a few billboards and ACLU/FFR lawsuits and the fact that people say "happy holidays" means that they're the real victims here.
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